Posted: Fri 11 Aug 2006 02:26 Post subject: Dating Choices and Preferences
Example one:
I once had a conversation with a white man at work who told me that he asked a black woman out once. While on his date with her, he felt self conscience about being out with her in public. He said that it felt "weird" and he didn't like it that people were looking at them. He said that after that date, he decided that he'd only ask out white women. Is this considered an act of racism on a personal/private level, or is this merely preference?
Example two:
I lurked on a message board once where a young 20 something white man complained about an incident that happened while hanging out with a friend. He was invited to go to a dance club with a (white) friend who had another friend along who happened to be black. These three guys were to meet the up with the white friend's girlfriend who had two of her friends along, one of whom was black. When they arrived at the club, the fellow telling his story assumed that the white girl was there to meet him and naturally, the black girl was for the black guy. He said that he was shy but he thought that he'd have time to ease his way into talking with this beautiful white girl. He did mention that this girl was BEAUTIFUL. Well, the black guy zoomed in on the white girl and asked her to dance. She said yes, then the story teller was left there with the black girl. This made him angry and he ranted to the message board about black men and asked why don't they stick with their own women. He said that this left him in an awkward situation because he's not "into black girls" Although he conceded in his post that there are some pretty black women such as Vanessa Williams. He thought that it was rude of the black guy to ask out the white girl because, as he explained, the black guy is use to black girls and won't mind whatever it is about black women that white men don't find attractive. He never did ask the black girl to dance with him. He just stewed over the "wrong" that he felt had been done to him. He said that he felt sorry for the black girl because not only did the black guy wrong him, but also wronged the black girl as well.
If a white man is excused for preferring white women, then what about a mulatto man? Heck, why not a black man?!!! If a black man is guinuinely not attracted to black women, this becomes (over) analyzed ad naseaum and the black man is judged to be self hating, colorist, etc. Are there any real legitimate reasons for choosing or simply preferring a particular ethnic group? I would hate to be the woman that ends up with any man who "settles" for me because he doesn't feel that he could attract what he really likes.
I believe that who we decide to date and marry is a personal choice that no one else has the right to dictate to us. We still get outside flack from family and society in some instances.
Posted: Fri 11 Aug 2006 04:42 Post subject: Re: Dating Choices and Preferences
mixedmom wrote:
Example one:
I once had a conversation with a white man at work who told me that he asked a black woman out once. While on his date with her, he felt self conscience about being out with her in public. He said that it felt "weird" and he didn't like it that people were looking at them. He said that after that date, he decided that he'd only ask out white women. Is this considered an act of racism on a personal/private level, or is this merely preference?
in this example i view it not as racism/prejudice but more as preference-- and his preference was greatly influenced by his own insecurities and low self esteem. had he taken this young black female to a setting where NO ONE gave them a lingering look then he probably would've loosened up. he was already insecure about the situation going into it. i would be willing to bet that folks weren't even staring at them or if there was someone who paid a little too much attention i would guess that it was just one, possibly two, people. his insecurities exaggerated the negatives of the situation in his mind. if this fool went out w/ a red head and people didn't react in a way which he found favorable he would make excuses to never date them again either.
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Example two:
I lurked on a message board once where a young 20 something white man complained about an incident that happened while hanging out with a friend. He was invited to go to a dance club with a (white) friend who had another friend along who happened to be black. These three guys were to meet the up with the white friend's girlfriend who had two of her friends along, one of whom was black. When they arrived at the club, the fellow telling his story assumed that the white girl was there to meet him and naturally, the black girl was for the black guy. He said that he was shy but he thought that he'd have time to ease his way into talking with this beautiful white girl. He did mention that this girl was BEAUTIFUL. Well, the black guy zoomed in on the white girl and asked her to dance. She said yes, then the story teller was left there with the black girl. This made him angry and he ranted to the message board about black men and asked why don't they stick with their own women. He said that this left him in an awkward situation because he's not "into black girls" Although he conceded in his post that there are some pretty black women such as Vanessa Williams. He thought that it was rude of the black guy to ask out the white girl because, as he explained, the black guy is use to black girls and won't mind whatever it is about black women that white men don't find attractive. He never did ask the black girl to dance with him. He just stewed over the "wrong" that he felt had been done to him. He said that he felt sorry for the black girl because not only did the black guy wrong him, but also wronged the black girl as well.
now THIS instance was influenced by racism/prejudice. first of all his ego was shot down before it even had a chance to take a breath and in a very reactionary manner he had to focus his failure to attract the white girl on something-- it being his own racist viewpoints re: black men. i would say that him not being attracted to black women could possibly be preference but i would think that, given his incredibly slanted views on black males, there was a goodly amount of racism involved in that as well.
Quote:
If a white man is excused for preferring white women, then what about a mulatto man? Heck, why not a black man?!!! If a black man is guinuinely not attracted to black women, this becomes (over) analyzed ad naseaum and the black man is judged to be self hating, colorist, etc. Are there any real legitimate reasons for choosing or simply preferring a particular ethnic group? I would hate to be the woman that ends up with any man who "settles" for me because he doesn't feel that he could attract what he really likes.
my bf said he had heard that jill scott said at one of her concerts (my bf thought it was because of interracial couples in the audience but he admittedly wasn't 100% certain) "a man should be w/ a woman who looks like his mother". in someone like ben harper's case-- well he DID get w/ someone of the same race and/or phenotype as his own mother: a white woman. so if jill did in fact make that comment she probably didn't think it all of the way thru.
now THIS instance was influenced by racism/prejudice. first of all his ego was shot down before it even had a chance to take a breath and in a very reactionary manner he had to focus his failure to attract the white girl on something-- it being his own racist viewpoints re: black men. i would say that him not being attracted to black women could possibly be preference but i would think that, given his incredibly slanted views on black males, there was a goodly amount of racism involved in that as well.
I agree that race is definitely being focused on in an inappropriate manner. The young story teller needs to realize that it really doesn't matter that the guy who won the girl was black. He simply lost out to another man, that's all. He probably wouldn't have felt any better if the black guy had been white. Since there are some black Americans who have assimilated into mainstream American culture, America has "African-Americans" and just plain ol' Americans who just happen to be of African descent. That's my take on it anyway. In the case of the "plain ol' Americans", those who happen to be black won't see themselves as having an obligation to remain in the "roped off areas" of society. So, whatever's acceptable for the white guy ie asking out a pretty white girl for instance, is just as acceptable for the black guy.
People racialize everything. As long as "race" is real and political someone can turn your personal preference and relationships into rhetoric. They become fodder for all kinds of things.
However - I do believe that many of us have been deeply and subconsciously affected by racism. I think our natural preferences as human beings have been tainted by racism. We shouldn't assume that personal preferences are completely devoid of meaning in that regard. I've met too many tortured souls who are pining away for the love of their lives because they were forced apart by racism and outside pressure, or trying to deny their attraction to whatever phenotype because it isn't politically correct.
The freer our societies become of racism and colorism the more we'll be able to view physical attraction apart from race.
And here's a thought that occurred to me the other day: How are we so sure that a person is attracted to someone "outside of their race" when we don't know what their ancestors looked like? This is one of my folk theories but I think that attraction is biological and one's preferences are possibly transmitted like genes, but of course influenced by the environment. So whose to say that your average genetically mixed person who looks monoracial isn't looking for someone who looks like great-great-great-great grandpa?
sagascend, what you posted reminds me of the man in my first example. This man is rather snobby. He's the type of person who defines other people by their job or position. If you're "only" a secretary, then you're lower than him but not only are you lower than him at work, but you're lower than him in life in general! Never mind if you're husband is a banker and you live in a small mansion... Anyway, it's important to this man to go as high as he can and I believe that he knows that with a black wife and "tainted" children in tow, he wouldn't be able to climb as high on the social ladder as he would with a white wife and white children. I definitely think that this plays a huge role in why many white men are not attracted to black women in particular.
I believe that he knows that with a black wife and "tainted" children in tow, he wouldn't be able to climb as high on the social ladder as he would with a white wife and white children. I definitely think that this plays a huge role in why many white men are not attracted to black women in particular.
I believe the man you described has racist tendencies (and a superiority complex) and is offended/disgusted that other people exist who don't share his narrow minded "racial" self-segregationist beliefs. Such a man (and this goes for women with such attitudes as well) has no business being involved in an "interracial" relationship/marriage and certainly shouldn't be bringing bi/multiracial children into the world.
I also believe that many white American men (and people in general regardless of "race") DO still assume that with a black/biracial wife and mixed kids, they won't be able to excel professionally and socially. But, this racist phenomenon (that most certainly DID exist in the past) is actually changing these days. At least in certain professions. I really think each situation is different and you can't make that generalization anymore.
My husband is European and is an architect/desginer of amusement park rides and museum installations internationally. He's with the top design firm here in Ohio, and is currently being courted for a great position (girl we have some tough possibly life changing decisions to make in the coming months...) in Michigan with a company that is internationally known as being the world leaders in Integrated Event Marketing. There are 13 locations world wide and there would even be the possibility of transferring after a few years to their Northern California or German office. We could FINALLY be close to family...
Theres been no deleterious affect for him because of me and our children. We're also well loved and respected amongst our wide circle of friends - family of course - and our immediate community.
And I'll be honest, I DID fear negative consequences for him career wise because of our marriage. All I can say is I'm overjoyed these fears were unwarranted. We've been truly blessed.
I guess it has to do with which population/group one WANTS to gain repsect/admiration from. We wouldn't have anything to do with racist, arrogant (which is often a cover for insecurity), closeminded and unintelligent people. Their rejection is not considered a loss.
sagascend, what you posted reminds me of the man in my first example. This man is rather snobby. He's the type of person who defines other people by their job or position. If you're "only" a secretary, then you're lower than him but not only are you lower than him at work, but you're lower than him in life in general! Never mind if you're husband is a banker and you live in a small mansion... Anyway, it's important to this man to go as high as he can and I believe that he knows that with a black wife and "tainted" children in tow, he wouldn't be able to climb as high on the social ladder as he would with a white wife and white children. I definitely think that this plays a huge role in why many white men are not attracted to black women in particular.
I agree mixedmom. Even if, as zsana said, this is changing it is still a perception or very real fear that people have. What is interesting is that the choice of a non-White person to marry a White person is usually seen as a "step up" - so while one person is ruining their career another is supposedly bettering his/hers. Hopefully the net effect is that the family income goes up! Boy are we confused!
Black women have traditionally less access to the "supreme White male wage earner" as wives but that is changing with their gains in education and employment. Class and type of wealth/career really matter here, as it does in monoracial relationships. The WASPier your profession and family the more likely it is that marrying an "unsuitable person" will negatively affect your career and social life. The more public your role, if it is non-sports/entertainment, the more it will likely affect your career.
But what it really comes down to is offending people who are White supremacists - a White man married to a non-White is not only publicly acknowledging that he is willing to "denigrate the race," he has also acutely upheld the worth and desirability of that non-White woman. That is a betrayal to the cult of White female worship in our society. The more successful this man is the more dangerous his "betrayal" becomes. Society understands why Black men honor White women with marriage but it doesn't get why a White man would honor a non-White woman with marriage when he could just marry White and sleep non-White "on the down low."
But I believe that there have always been exceptions to the rule because powerful people don't need to justify their personal choices as much as the rest of society.
But what it really comes down to is offending people who are White supremacists - a White man married to a non-White is not only publicly acknowledging that he is willing to "denigrate the race," he has also acutely upheld the worth and desirability of that non-White woman. That is a betrayal to the cult of White female worship in our society. The more successful this man is the more dangerous his "betrayal" becomes. Society understands why Black men honor White women with marriage but it doesn't get why a White man would honor a non-White woman with marriage when he could just marry White and sleep non-White "on the down low."
But I believe that there have always been exceptions to the rule because powerful people don't need to justify their personal choices as much as the rest of society.
In a nutshell. Very true observations and excellent analysis.
My husband is European and is an architect/desginer of amusement park rides and museum installations internationally. He's with the top design firm here in Ohio, and is currently being courted for a great position (girl we have some tough possibly life changing decisions to make in the coming months...) in Michigan with a company that is internationally known as being the world leaders in Integrated Event Marketing. There are 13 locations world wide and there would even be the possibility of transferring after a few years to their Northern California or German office. We could FINALLY be close to family...
I remember you saying that you were isolated from both sides of your family. Knowing how hard that is I sure hope that you can move closer to one of your homes!
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Theres been no deleterious affect for him because of me and our children. We're also well loved and respected amongst our wide circle of friends - family of course - and our immediate community.
And I'll be honest, I DID fear negative consequences for him career wise because of our marriage. All I can say is I'm overjoyed these fears were unwarranted. We've been truly blessed.
You know, as racist as the world can be I think your experience is more representative of the way things are these days. There are more good, compassionate people than the opposite, and luckily, now-a-days not many people are forced to live among ignorant people.
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I guess it has to do with which population/group one WANTS to gain repsect/admiration from. We wouldn't have anything to do with racist, arrogant (which is often a cover for insecurity), closeminded and unintelligent people. Their rejection is not considered a loss.
That's true. People with sense don't let people without it affect them in any substantive way.
I don't know whether or not my perception is accurate but it seems to me that European men relate to non-white women much better than American white men. It just seems to be the case, maybe I'm wrong...
zsana wrote:
I believe the man you described has racist tendencies (and a superiority complex) and is offended/disgusted that other people exist who don't share his narrow minded "racial" self-segregationist beliefs. Such a man (and this goes for women with such attitudes as well) has no business being involved in an "interracial" relationship/marriage and certainly shouldn't be bringing bi/multiracial children into the world.
This man is definitely a "classist" and although I wouldn't consider him a racist, I agree with you that he does have above average racist tendencies. When he told me his story, I felt sorry for his date.
zsana wrote:
I also believe that many white American men (and people in general regardless of "race") DO still assume that with a black/biracial wife and mixed kids, they won't be able to excel professionally and socially. But, this racist phenomenon (that most certainly DID exist in the past) is actually changing these days. At least in certain professions. I really think each situation is different and you can't make that generalization anymore.
I see what you're saying. I do see where this racist phenomenon is changing for the better. But for those who are still stuck in what's becoming a time warp, this fear seems to strongly influence their attraction process, in subliminal ways.
Interesting observations. I am also married to a European man, and have observed that European men when compared to white American men do not have that same racial/cultural baggage that white American men do.
A good friend of mine in high school who was a busty, yet petite black girl was found to be very attractive by guys of different ethnicities. She was attracted to all sorts but tended to date white guys.
Yet white guys tended to fetishize her- in a 2 dimensional way-ie. such as being "highly sexual black girl". Someone to fool around with but definitely not get serious about.
Of course serious relationships out of high school-involves the dynamics of income, occupation, "class" and race/ethnicity.
In the minds of some people there is a tendency to associate and assume race and class to be the same thing.
I was just wondering if good number of the women on this forum are married to European men or to men born outside of the U.S?
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