The Study of Racialism Discussion of U.S. Racialism Please read The Rules before posting.    FAQ   Search     Register     Log in  ' Blacks to outnumber whites Goto page 1, 2  Next          The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Latin America Author Message pls_stfu New User Joined: 12 May 2008 {Posts: 22 } Posted: Sat 17 May 2008 08:33    Post subject: Blacks to outnumber whites http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-flabrazrace0514sbmay14,0,1165025.story Sun-Sentinel wrote: Brazil's blacks will soon be in majority By MICHAEL ASTOR | The Associated Press May 14, 2008 RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil - Blacks will outnumber whites in Brazil this year for the first time since slavery was abolished, but the income gap between the two groups may take another 50 years to bridge, according to a government study released Tuesday. The government's Applied Institute of Economic Research said Brazil, which has the world's second-largest black population after Nigeria, is decades away from racial equality despite public policies aimed at decreasing the gap. Blacks generally earn 50 percent to 70 percent less than whites, and hold only 3.5 percent of management positions at Brazil's 500 largest companies, according to the labor-union statistics institute Diesse. A 2004 study by the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro found the income gap between whites and blacks in Brazil was wider than in apartheid-era South Africa. "Black people end up not having the access to an education that will allow them to climb to meet opportunities. And when there is an opening, they aren't always capable of competing for it," said Diesse director Clemente Ganz Lucio. In recent years, Brazil has created a system of quotas at public universities that has bridged the gap somewhat. But quotas are complicated in Brazil because of the high degree of mixing between races, and some critics say light-skinned people are taking spots reserved for blacks. The government study was released Tuesday to coincide with the 120th anniversary of abolition in Brazil. In 1888, Brazil became the last country in the Western hemisphere to end slavery. In 1890, blacks were estimated to make up 56 percent of Brazil's population, but that number dropped to 36 percent in 1940, according to the study. According to the last PNAD (National Research for Sample of Domiciles) census, blacks only constitute 6.9% of Brazil's population: way behind pardos and whites. Something is suspect. Back to top Bischoff Mentor Joined: 20 Jan 2008 {Posts: 395 } Posted: Sat 17 May 2008 16:28    Post subject: It's obvious the American who wrote that article is applying the ODR on all of the self identified Mixed Race Brazilians, hence why he paints them all just being plain o' Black. And the irony is that not all Pardos are are plain'o Mulatos, there are millions of Mestizos and Triracials among them. In some cases even Quaracials, because I know some Brazilians who in addition to having Euro, Amerindian, and SSA ancestry, also have Asian ancestry. You know if we were to use the reverse ODR, we could say that over 95% of Brazilians are White since the overwhelming majority of Brazilians have atleast one drop of European blood. Back to top G-Man Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2652 } Posted: Fri 23 May 2008 16:02    Post subject: BROWN IS NOT BLACK, BROWN IS MULTIRACIAL From Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwkOnw5P7LE&feature=related Back to top divana Experienced User Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 110 } Location: Somewhere... Posted: Sat 07 Jun 2008 14:19    Post subject: What should have been said was that African descendants in Brasil will be the majority. Then that is not to the exclusion of any other heritage that people have. If people would stop with this black and white nonsense then it would be better, imo. Back to top William Moderator Joined: 30 Mar 2005 {Posts: 1057 } Location: New Jersey Posted: Sat 07 Jun 2008 15:12    Post subject: dahlin wrote: If people would stop with this black and white nonsense then it would be better, imo. AMEN! Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 4584 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Sat 07 Jun 2008 15:56    Post subject: dahlin wrote: What should have been said was that African descendants in Brasil will be the majority. Then that is not to the exclusion of any other heritage that people have. Yes, but if "African descendants" means New World inhabitants with detectable subsaharan ancestry consequent to the transatlantic slave trade, then it is already true for every country except the U.S. and Canada (and even the U.S. does not fall short by much). On the other hand, if it means "self-identifies as African-American" then it is not true anywhere. Back to top caribj Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 437 } Posted: Sat 07 Jun 2008 23:30    Post subject: Bischoff wrote: And the irony is that not all Pardos are are plain'o Mulatos, there are millions of Mestizos and Triracials among them. In some cases even Quaracials, because I know some Brazilians who in addition to having Euro, Amerindian, and SSA ancestry, also have Asian ancestry. . I remember seeing a PBS documentary dealing with affirmative action in Brazil that I believe was commented on here. I noted that there were two mestizo looking kids, one upper middle class and one poor. The richer kid considered himself white and was hostile to affirmative action. The poorer girl was skeptical of it but I believe would use it to her advantage. So questions can be asked. 1. Who is "black" in Brazil? 2. Are there several definitions of "black" depending on context? 3. Is the definition of who is "black" in Brazil changing as the movement to empower Afrodescendants gathers steam? 4. Is it that the term "indian" or "mestizo" seems to be missing (apparently captured within "pardo" except for the Amazonian indigenous groups) that is creating confusion, forcing people who are more accurately describe as mainly or partially Amerindo rather than Afro to be captured as "black". 5. Mightnt it not be more accurate to divide the "pardo" category into a "mestizo", a "mulato" and some description to describe people with mixed African and Amerindian ancestry? I suspect that by combining black and pardo one exaggerates the size of the Afrodescendant population while negating the large numbers who are more Amerindo than Afro in ancestry. Last edited by caribj on Sat 07 Jun 2008 23:33; edited 1 time in total Back to top caribj Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 437 } Posted: Sat 07 Jun 2008 23:33    Post subject: Bischoff wrote: You know if we were to use the reverse ODR, we could say that over 95% of Brazilians are White since the overwhelming majority of Brazilians have atleast one drop of European blood. We could but I doubt it would be useful as in Brazil its the degree of visible African or Amerindian ancestry that defines one within the socio economic pecking order, all of things being equal. Back to top divana Experienced User Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 110 } Location: Somewhere... Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 00:56    Post subject: fwsweet wrote: dahlin wrote: What should have been said was that African descendants in Brasil will be the majority. Then that is not to the exclusion of any other heritage that people have. Yes, but if "African descendants" means New World inhabitants with detectable subsaharan ancestry consequent to the transatlantic slave trade, then it is already true for every country except the U.S. and Canada (and even the U.S. does not fall short by much). On the other hand, if it means "self-identifies as African-American" then it is not true anywhere. Not sure if I would agree that every other country would meet that but either way, color classifications are really senseless. Could you explain your last comment. Most people of African descent outside the U.S. do not consider themselves African-American... Back to top G-Man Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2652 } Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 01:01    Post subject: dahlin wrote: What should have been said was that African descendants in Brasil will be the majority. People with at least some African ancestry are the majority of the country already, no? Back to top divana Experienced User Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 110 } Location: Somewhere... Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 01:07    Post subject: G-Man wrote: dahlin wrote: What should have been said was that African descendants in Brasil will be the majority. People with at least some African ancestry are the majority of the country already, no? The figures may vary on that. Ones I have seen show "whites" as the majority. Now how "white" is really defined, who knows. However, I believe that this article is referring to those that acknowledge their African heritage - both "mulatto" and "black." That why using African descent, rather than "black" makes more sense to me. Back to top G-Man Moderator Joined: 27 Nov 2004 {Posts: 2652 } Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 01:32    Post subject: dahlin wrote: G-Man wrote: dahlin wrote: What should have been said was that African descendants in Brasil will be the majority. People with at least some African ancestry are the majority of the country already, no? The figures may vary on that. Ones I have seen show "whites" as the majority. Now how "white" is really defined, who knows. However, I believe that this article is referring to those that acknowledge their African heritage - both "mulatto" and "black." That why using African descent, rather than "black" makes more sense to me. But there are white people in Brazil who do the same. Fernado Henrique Cardoso, the former president of the country, is one. Back to top caribj Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 437 } Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 02:27    Post subject: G-Man wrote: [But there are white people in Brazil who do the same. Fernado Henrique Cardoso, the former president of the country, is one. I think that there is a difference from acknowledging some African ancestry and defining yourself as being an afrodescendant i.e. "black", mulatto, etc. For instance I have some white ancestry but I define myself as black. Back to top fwsweet Administrator Joined: 26 Nov 2004 {Posts: 4584 } Location: Palm Coast, FL Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 02:47    Post subject: caribj wrote: I think that there is a difference from acknowledging some African ancestry and defining yourself as being an afrodescendant i.e. "black", mulatto, etc. For instance I have some white ancestry but I define myself as black. Yeah, but you are American. Americans are weird that way. You are talking about an ethnic self-identity that is based on a presumed overriding importance of one of your ancestral continents of ancestry. There is nothing like that in any Latin country. In short, you are talking about self-identifying as "African-American," and it is exceedingly unlikely that many Brazilians self-identify as "African-American." And, please, before replying that you are not referring to "African-American," but to "black" in the sense of the vast global unity of Afro-descended "black" people everywhere, please read this thread. Back to top divana Experienced User Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 110 } Location: Somewhere... Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 11:33    Post subject: G-Man wrote: dahlin wrote: G-Man wrote: dahlin wrote: What should have been said was that African descendants in Brasil will be the majority. People with at least some African ancestry are the majority of the country already, no? The figures may vary on that. Ones I have seen show "whites" as the majority. Now how "white" is really defined, who knows. However, I believe that this article is referring to those that acknowledge their African heritage - both "mulatto" and "black." That why using African descent, rather than "black" makes more sense to me. But there are white people in Brazil who do the same. Fernado Henrique Cardoso, the former president of the country, is one. This likely applies to those who choose to identify as being of African descent. Back to top divana Experienced User Joined: 10 Aug 2006 {Posts: 110 } Location: Somewhere... Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 11:39    Post subject: fwsweet wrote: caribj wrote: I think that there is a difference from acknowledging some African ancestry and defining yourself as being an afrodescendant i.e. "black", mulatto, etc. For instance I have some white ancestry but I define myself as black. Yeah, but you are American. Americans are weird that way. You are talking about an ethnic self-identity that is based on a presumed overriding importance of one of your ancestral continents of ancestry. There is nothing like that in any Latin country. In short, you are talking about self-identifying as "African-American," and it is exceedingly unlikely that many Brazilians self-identify as "African-American." And, please, before replying that you are not referring to "African-American," but to "black" in the sense of the vast global unity of Afro-descended "black" people everywhere, please read this thread. But isn't this poster equating to how he identifies himself as black being similar to how the former President identifies himself as white? Also isn't this poster Caribbean, not African-American? Unless he/she identifies as the latter. Maybe I'm confused. Back to top caribj Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 437 } Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 17:14    Post subject: caribj wrote: I think that there is a difference from acknowledging some African ancestry and defining yourself as being an afrodescendant i.e. "black", mulatto, etc. For instance I have some white ancestry but I define myself as black. [/quote] As you full well know I am not American. I am West Indian and one who arrived here as a 26 year old with fully formed notions of my identity. One which is accepted within the norms of Anglophone Caribbean color/race/ethnicity designations. Any way to the point I was defining as Afrodescendant some one who calls themselves black, mulatto or any other number of designations which imply some obvious African ancestry, at least in part. This is the definition that the OAS and other international bodies are now using. Its a way of acknowledging that many people from outside of the USA with some visible African ancestry dont consider themselves black, calling themselves by other descriptions, all of which imply some SSAfrican ancestry. This is different from some one who defines themselves as white but has distant African ancestry which they acknowledge. You will note that I also referenced "mulatto" which I dont think Mr Cardoso considered himself to be. I get the impression that he considers himself to be a white Brazilian with distant African ancestry. You do accept the fact that in Latin America there are some who call themselves "black". Last edited by caribj on Sun 08 Jun 2008 17:21; edited 1 time in total Back to top caribj Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 437 } Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 17:19    Post subject: dahlin wrote: [ But isn't this poster equating to how he identifies himself as black being similar to how the former President identifies himself as white? Also isn't this poster Caribbean, not African-American? Unless he/she identifies as the latter. Maybe I'm confused. Dahlin thanks for getting my point. I arrived as a 26 year old way too old to want to consider myself to be African American. In any case in New York City many AAs know just from looking at me (before hearing me speak) that I am from some part of the Caribbean. Usually they think Haiti, Trinidad or the DR. Sometimes Jamaica usually from those less knowledgeable of the Caribbean. Even if I wanted to be AA I dont think that would be allowed. Back to top gs56ca Regular User Joined: 26 Jan 2008 {Posts: 69 } Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 19:17    Post subject: why does it matter if they are black or white. The people are suffering because they are not having good education or good housing. Concentrate on that. ALl this mumbo jumbo racial stuff , makes no sense . You can't tell someone's ancestry by their colour of skin. Enough already. lol. Back to top caribj Suspended Joined: 14 Mar 2007 {Posts: 437 } Posted: Sun 08 Jun 2008 19:29    Post subject: gs56ca wrote: why does it matter if they are black or white. The people are suffering because they are not having good education or good housing. . Some would argue that Afrodescendants suffer additionally because of negative perceptions based on their phenotype, in other words colorism. In fact this group (more accurately the various sub categories collectively referred to) is over represented amongst those suffering from bad housing, education, low incomes, etc as was pointed out in the post. Back to top Display posts from previous: All Posts1 Day7 Days2 Weeks1 Month3 Months6 Months1 Year Oldest FirstNewest First         The Study of Racialism Forum Index -> Latin America All times are GMT Goto page 1, 2  Next Page 1 of 2 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group