This is all most interesting to me as I’m researching historical Blacks and coloureds in Europe.
Without starting a new topic I like to say that this discussion reminds me of similar processes as the existence of the Black Dutch: the Black European immigrants who arrived in America in the 17th century. Mike Nassau wrote an Internet article about Black Dutch (Deutsch) and Black Irish. What makes this highly interesting to me is that there were Blacks or at least Black looking people coming from Europe who were not to be treated as the enslaved Africans. And that later on people claimed descent from these Black Dutch to escape slavery or not be treated and segregated as if they were ‘n*gg*rs.’
Some might argue that as long as people are not SSA looking, they are okay! Some even believe those people to be Whites! Rhett Jones (2003: 257-285) writes about coloured American communities as Freejacks, Cape Verdians, Lumbee and Black Seminoles; which had visible Black, Indian and White admixture but under pressure of racism decided to regard themselves as White’s. I guess that they would make sure that the more White looking ones were given front seats.
I’m further reminded of some people of Aruba, a former Dutch colony, who seem to consider themselves White and would for example frown on Aruban women with braided hairstyles. I guess that women with frizzy hair are expected to straighten the kinkiness out. They even deny having any Black ancestors and a slave great-grandmother is sometimes regarded as shameful. Perhaps they also fear the lost of tourism from certain Americans. This I did not fully research but relied on information of people who regularly visit Aruba.
Some of it consistent with what I find in my research about colonial Surinam. But Surinamese have strong and proud traditions around slavery and nobody tries to hide slave ancestors.
Don't know anything about Black Dutch, but Black Irish is generally understood to be people from Ireland with black hair.
Additionally, many of the earlier Cape Verdean immigrants in New England saw themselves as Portuguese. They were part of the Portuguese Empire. Some were in fact indistinguishable from people from Portugal.
In general, based on what I've read, Cape Verdeans and their U.S.-born children in the first half of the 20th century did not see themselves either as Negroes (the terminology of the time) or as part of the African-American community. It is safe to say that many of them saw themselves as neither black nor white.
Don't know anything about Black Dutch, but Black Irish is generally understood to be people from Ireland with black hair.
Additionally, many of the earlier Cape Verdean immigrants in New England saw themselves as Portuguese. They were part of the Portuguese Empire. Some were in fact indistinguishable from people from Portugal.
In general, based on what I've read, Cape Verdeans and their U.S.-born children in the first half of the 20th century did not see themselves either as Negroes (the terminology of the time) or as part of the African-American community. It is safe to say that many of them saw themselves as neither black nor white.
I typed in Google the word 'Cape Verdians.' You see, I have this thing for portraits and images. Lets take it from here, and not speak of these people as some ghost. They look Black to me, as they should with West Africa lurking nearby. A security person at this library is Cape Verdian, with very light skin but frizzy hair, broad nose and thick, pink lips. He considers himself Black and added "Thank God!'
Don't know anything about Black Dutch, but Black Irish is generally understood to be people from Ireland with black hair.
Additionally, many of the earlier Cape Verdean immigrants in New England saw themselves as Portuguese. They were part of the Portuguese Empire. Some were in fact indistinguishable from people from Portugal.
In general, based on what I've read, Cape Verdeans and their U.S.-born children in the first half of the 20th century did not see themselves either as Negroes (the terminology of the time) or as part of the African-American community. It is safe to say that many of them saw themselves as neither black nor white.
I would wish for people to start using their own brain and reject confusing and nonsensical explanations that a Black Irish is called Black because of Black hair. This they will also claim from historical persons as Charles II Stuart also known as ‘The Black Boy.’ Some where nicknamed Il Moro but the museums show a White man with just black hair (Sforza). So only Black hair which is highly common among the British cannot explain this pejorative use of ‘Black’ against the Irish. There is a old cartoon somewhere in the internet which shows a African American in profile, next to a Irish immigrant and both show prognatism, albeit the Irish with a lighter form. This is to show that Irish were Black looking to at least this cartoonist.
I typed in Google the word 'Cape Verdians.' You see, I have this thing for portraits and images. Lets take it from here, and not speak of these people as some ghost. They look Black to me, as they should with West Africa lurking nearby. A security person at this library is Cape Verdian, with very light skin but frizzy hair, broad nose and thick, pink lips. He considers himself Black and added "Thank God!'
Codfried's opinion of the looks of Cape Verdeans is irrelevant to their ethno-political self-identity. The ethno-political self-identity of an acquaintance of Codfried's is irrelelvant to the ethno-political self-identity of the Cape Verdeans themselves. Codfried is in violation of rule 2.6 and his posting privilege is hereby suspended until mdnight, October 2, 2008.
Anyone else interested in Americans of Cape Verdean descent should read Marilyn Halter, Between Race and Ethnicity: Cape Verdean American Immigrants, 1860-1965 (Urbana: University of Illinois, 1993) or some other serious study of this fascinating U.S. community before opining on their ethno-political self-identity. As always, criticising their (or anyone's) choice of ethno-political self-identity is grounds for suspension.
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Wed 03 Sep 2008 16:07 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
Egmond Codfried wrote:
I typed in Google the word 'Cape Verdians.' You see, I have this thing for portraits and images. Lets take it from here, and not speak of these people as some ghost. They look Black to me, as they should with West Africa lurking nearby. A security person at this library is Cape Verdian, with very light skin but frizzy hair, broad nose and thick, pink lips. He considers himself Black and added "Thank God!'
Codfried's opinion of the looks of Cape Verdeans is irrelevant to their ethno-political self-identity. The ethno-political self-identity of an acquaintance of Codfried's is irrelelvant to the ethno-political self-identity of the Cape Verdeans themselves. Codfried is in violation of rule 2.6 and his posting privilege is hereby suspended until mdnight, October 2, 2008.
I wanted to ask him what, exactly, it takes for someone to look mulatto. On this board, and many others, there are so many naysayers that say that this and that celebrity looks "black" (and it's always a one-droppist saying it). That said, I would have loved to have have from Codfried his take on what it takes to look mulatto.
I would have loved to have had from Codfried his take on what it takes to look mulatto.
I doubt that you would have gotten a straight answer. Nevertheless, he will return on October 2 and you can try then. But do it fast. Because as soon as his answer wanders off topic I shall suspend him again for two months.
Posted: Mon 22 Sep 2008 20:53 Post subject: Re: Latinos
Powell wrote:
onlyhuman77 wrote:
Something I found very interesting, once when dating a multiracial female who was West Indian (Father-Indian/West Indian, Mother-German) I received so much attitude from African American females it was rediculous. But when I was dating a Spanish female (Mexican/Puerto Rican) who dressed way too provacative for my taste, not a peep from the peanut gallery. So the Multiracial sister with African ancestry gets no love but the Latina with Eva Longoria proportions gets props on her sleezy yet fashion forward attire . I just didn't get it.
But Latinos are also mixed. Americans are socialized to talk about them as though they were a separate "race."
Yes, Americans tend to think of Latinos as a 'race' even though they can see how widely they range. It has been, and still is difficult for a Latino actor who's phenotype does not fit the stereotypical Hollywood one, to play Latino roles if he is too extreme on all ends (too black, too indian, or too white).
I typed in Google the word 'Cape Verdians.' You see, I have this thing for portraits and images. Lets take it from here, and not speak of these people as some ghost. They look Black to me, as they should with West Africa lurking nearby. A security person at this library is Cape Verdian, with very light skin but frizzy hair, broad nose and thick, pink lips. He considers himself Black and added "Thank God!'
Codfried's opinion of the looks of Cape Verdeans is irrelevant to their ethno-political self-identity. The ethno-political self-identity of an acquaintance of Codfried's is irrelelvant to the ethno-political self-identity of the Cape Verdeans themselves. Codfried is in violation of rule 2.6 and his posting privilege is hereby suspended until mdnight, October 2, 2008.
I wanted to ask him what, exactly, it takes for someone to look mulatto. On this board, and many others, there are so many naysayers that say that this and that celebrity looks "black" (and it's always a one-droppist saying it). That said, I would have loved to have have from Codfried his take on what it takes to look mulatto.
Dear, You have been pining for my return? That's very sweet. Keep it up and I'll marry you. As you know in Holland anything goes regarding these matters...
But I have found a home on Egyptsearch.com. and have been making use of my Freedom of Speech. So perhaps you or I could start a topic and discuss away, without interruption. Let me know your plans and,
Joined: 26 May 2007 {Posts: 394 } Location: San Antonio, Texas
Posted: Thu 02 Oct 2008 16:44 Post subject:
fwsweet wrote:
Richard Miller wrote:
I would have loved to have had from Codfried his take on what it takes to look mulatto.
I doubt that you would have gotten a straight answer. Nevertheless, he will return on October 2 and you can try then. But do it fast. Because as soon as his answer wanders off topic I shall suspend him again for two months.
I would have loved to have had from Codfried his take on what it takes to look mulatto.
I doubt that you would have gotten a straight answer. Nevertheless, he will return on October 2 and you can try then. But do it fast. Because as soon as his answer wanders off topic I shall suspend him again for two months.
Looks like you were right.
A mulatto is the offspring of a Black and a White.
A mulatto-type is anywhere between Black and White, showing phenotype of both groups.
'A fixed mulatto race' was coined by J.A.Rogers in 'Sex and Race' (1941) to describe the Arabs in Iraq. They reminded him of Latin American's in the USA.
People who have been following my threads about Blue Blood=Black Blood will notice that it mirrors research in the US after the Black Dutch, Melungeons, Lumbee etc. Groups who showed a coloured admixture. I have settled on defining them as 'A European, fixed mulatto race,' after collecting personal descriptions and then portraits.
How can I find out why Miller got suspended so I might be informed and learn not to make the same mistake? No never mind, I found the thread. Dear Lord! Is giving someone 'a rope to hang himself' a way of informing the forum?
How can I find out why Miller got suspended so I might be informed and learn not to make the same mistake?
He was supended for saying that the members of this site are "redneck mo'fos" or might as well be. When I warned him that this accusation was ad hominem he said that it was not offensive, because some people like to be called "redneck mo'fos". The immediate trigger for his suspension was his violation of rules 2.2 and 4.7. To avoid making the same mistake, if you hurl a personal insult ("redneck mo'fo") at the entire site membership, retract it when warned by a moderator. Do not re-affirm the insult by sayng some people like being called "redneck mo'fo".
The entire exchange leading up to Miller's supension is here. You will find an explanation of what constitutes ad hominemhere.
Our postings crossed each other and I have found the thread where Miller got suspended, and even posted a question. Ad Hominem in a discussion is always wrong. On some sites it so 'normal' that you do not notice it anymore. Like stepping in dog-poop in Holland, you curse and move on. But how can one approach a known 'false player' a liar and a cheat as if he just came to the table and is above any reproach. Are you not allowed to expose his old tricks by pointing to older showdowns? This is off topic for this thread because I am not allowed to post in the discussion of the Rules thread. Perhaps it can now be moved to that thread?
Last edited by Egmond Codfried on Wed 15 Oct 2008 12:59; edited 1 time in total
In the United States, whites with Native American, African American, or other non-white ancestry may historically have called themselves "Black Irish," "Black Dutch," or "Black German" as a reflection of their coloring.[20]
From Wikipedia
Mike Nassau writes, unlike Wikipedia, about 'Black Dutch' as if they were already Coloured when they stepped of the boat, not that they married any Indians or Africans in the US. This would come later when people, perhaps falsely, explained their colour as if it came from Black European ancestors. To name them Black Dutch and society not treating them as it would African-Africans, reminds me of the practice by the Apartheid South African government who would give Black official guests the status of 'Honorary White's.’ There is a book with this title by a Black Caribbean writer who had visited S.A, and was allowed to sleep in 'Whites-only' hotels and such. White personnel looking after all his needs! Still Nassau talks about hair and eyes. This is hard for me to grasp as I believe Americans knew what Black's look like. So why call these poor people Black Dutch, if they only had black hair and eyes? Why I like Nassau is that he mentions the Black Forest in southern Germany, where between 1300-1400 the image of the Black Magi on Adoration pieces began. The same region where the Black Dutch originated. My point is that when designating groups as White’s, there actual looks were most likely not really part of the equation. As if they were given a choice in which role to play in their new environment.
I have been busy with them wonderful Black Irish, as you can see! Did yall know that sex sells! But seriously, some cartoonist found that the Irish resembled Negroes. Than all this fiddling about 'a Spanish ship running a ground' sounds so foolish. Personally I do not like to have the same discussion going on for another hundred years, and rather talk about 'How The Irish Became White,' as posted on this informative threat, started by me and, alas, interfered with by others. So even if it's hypothetical, we can make some progress and inform each other about these hypothesis.
Ironically, Irish Catholics came to this country as an oppressed race yet quickly learned that to succeed they had to in turn oppress their closest social class competitors, free Northern blacks. Back home these "native Irish or papists" suffered something very similar to American slavery under English Penal Laws. Yet, despite their revolutionary roots as an oppressed group fighting for freedom and rights, and despite consistent pleas from the great Catholic emancipator, Daniel O'Connell, to support the abolitionists, the newly arrived Irish-Americans judged that the best way of gaining acceptance as good citizens and to counter the Nativist movement was to cooperate in the continued oppression of African Americans. Ironically, at the same time they were collaborating with the dominant culture to block abolition, they were garnering support from among Southern, slaveholding democrats for Repeal of the oppressive English Act of the Union back home. Some even convinced themselves that abolition was an English plot to weaken this country.
I have been busy with them wonderful Black Irish, as you can see! Did yall know that sex sells! But seriously, some cartoonist found that the Irish resembled Negroes. Than all this fiddling about 'a Spanish ship running a ground' sounds so foolish. Personally I do not like to have the same discussion going on for another hundred years, and rather talk about 'How The Irish Became White,' as posted on this informative threat, started by me and, alas, interfered with by others. So even if it's hypothetical, we can make some progress and inform each other about these hypothesis.
What type of DNA evidence is there that would support the claim that the Black Irish are really SSA decendents or for that mattter that the blue blooded people of Europe are same?
What type of DNA evidence is there that would support the claim that the Black Irish are really SSA decendents or for that mattter that the blue blooded people of Europe are same?
A fair question! My postings in this thread are about informing yall what I have found in my search on the web for the Black Irish. I give you the data as I found it. Some of these sources argue they looked like 'Negroes,' others say they did not. The Wikipedia thread talks at length about DNA. Did you not bother to read it?
About my own dear Black Kings and Black Nobility: Someone on this site suggested early on that DNA samples and skeletons should be examined of these Nobles. I however do not see that happening, in this lifetime. But I will not revive this discussion over here. I suggest you forget about it, as it seems to cause so much grief. If you must, look for it on egyptsearch.com. and lets have a decent discussion over there. Over here, mum is the word!
Joined: 24 Sep 2008 {Posts: 102 } Location: Santiago, DR
Posted: Wed 15 Oct 2008 13:39 Post subject:
Egmond Codfried wrote:
chip wrote:
What type of DNA evidence is there that would support the claim that the Black Irish are really SSA decendents or for that mattter that the blue blooded people of Europe are same?
A fair question! My postings in this thread are about informing yall what I have found in my search on the web for the Black Irish. I give you the data as I found it. Some of these sources argue they looked like 'Negroes,' others say they did not. The Wikipedia thread talks at length about DNA. Did you not bother to read it?
About my own dear Black Kings and Black Nobility: Someone on this site suggested early on that DNA samples and skeletons should be examined of these Nobles. I however do not see that happening, in this lifetime. But I will not revive this discussion over here. I suggest you forget about it, as it seems to cause so much grief. If you must, look for it on egyptsearch.com. and lets have a decent discussion over there. Over here, mum is the word!
Assuming you are talking about the "blue blood" thread where a I posted in response to a comment you made, honestly, after fsweet's response to your claim I assumed I would trust him, given his credentials. I also didn't see the link you claim either.
Also, as I'm not DNA specialist, I couldn't decipher a report if I had to so I will just have to defer to the experts, like fsweet. I recommend you convince him first with your evidence before I can concurr.
'
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in
